God is as He reveals Himself to be – the Trinity in the Old Testament

Recently a commenter challenged me on my statement that “God is as He reveals Himself to be.”  I was referring to the fact that when we read the Bible, God’s revelation to man about who He is and what He is like, we discover many fascinating things, some of which are not quantifiable in our finite and earth-bound experiences.  The chief notion that this commenter had a problem with was my claim that God has revealed Himself to be one God existing in three persons.

Here is an excerpt of his reply comment:

You have said “God is as He reveals Himself to be. He has revealed Himself to be one God existing in three persons.”

Please quote a single solid verse from the Bible which claims literally that God has told that He, Jesus and the holy spirit are one and the same and should be worshipped together as a single entity. Otherwise I do not find any logic in calling and eating an apple seed to be an apple itself.

I would begin by saying that if our belief in the veracity of something is somehow contingent on it only being found in a “single solid verse”, we’re either not open to having our minds changed by the facts or we have a very shallow view of how ideas and thoughts are developed.  For instance we could complain about long, complicated explanations given in medical or scientific journals—can’t they just get to the point and wrap up their thesis in a single sentence?  Why do they have to go on and on about semi-conductors, photosynthesis or aberrant glycosylation in tumors?  But would that make sense?

The Bible clearly teaches that God is “one what and three whos”, i.e. What is He?  God.  Who is He?  The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Anyone who wants to argue this argues not with me but with the clear revelation of scripture.  Christians have believed in the Trinity from the earliest days of the church and this belief has always been a clear demarcation for Christians about where orthodoxy ends and the cultic begins. 

Again, I’m just reporting the news, not making it, and my meager attempts to call attention to scriptures that support this view won’t hold a candle to mighty “Google”, which I’m sure someone soon will nominate for the 4th member of the Trinity.  Knock yourselves out.

There are many scriptures and many ways of addressing this issue, but for fun lets look only at some Old Testament verses describing the three persons of the Trinity prior to the incarnation (meaning God come “in the flesh”, see 1 John 4:1-3).  The point is, the Trinity is all through the Bible, not just the New Testament:

Deut 6:4: Hear, O Israel! The LORD [YHWH] is our God [Elohim, plural Gods], the LORD [YHWH] is one! [echad, a unity, unifying two or more items]

This verse is saying ‘Israel, our God YHWH, though plural in personhood, is a unified One’.  It makes both the point that God is one and that he has revealed himself in more than one person.  This is seen as early as the 2nd verse of the Bible:

Genesis 1:2: The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Yahweh also speaks of His Spirit as a person:

Genesis 6:3:  Then the LORD said, “My Spirit [רוח ruwach, Spirit, wind, breath] shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

Numbers 27:18:  So the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him”.

The “Angel of Yahweh”, translated LORD in many English versions, is actually a pre-incarnate appearance of Yeshua:

Judges 6:21-23:  Then the angel of the LORD [YHWH] put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened bread; and fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. Then the angel of the LORD vanished from his sight. When Gideon saw that he was the angel of the LORD, he said, “Alas, O Lord GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face.” The LORD said to him, “Peace to you, do not fear; you shall not die.”

Gideon thought he was going to die because it was clear to him he had just seen God, and he knew the verse You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live! (Exo 33:20).  God then assured him that he wouldn’t die.

There are over 50 references to “the angel of Yahweh” in the Old Testament.  It’s an interesting study to see God, through His “angel” Yeshua, interacting with his people.  It is even the Angel of the LORD that announced to Hagar her pregnancy with Ishmael, and that He/the Angel of the LORD would multiply her descendants; afterward Hagar declared it was Yahweh who spoke to her.

And God has revealed Himself as Father in the Old Testament as well, not just the NT:

Exodus 4:22:  Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn.”

Isa 63:16:  “For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not recognize us. You, O LORD, are our Father, Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.”

Isa 64:8:  “But now, O LORD, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand.”

Hosea 11:1:  “When Israel was a youth I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.”

We don’t determine who or what God is like—He is as He reveals Himself to be.

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31 Responses to God is as He reveals Himself to be – the Trinity in the Old Testament

  1. Abdullah says:

    God is as He reveals Himself

    Jesus says in the Bible when a man asked him about God
    And one of the scribes came, and asked him (Jesus), Which is the first commandment of all?

    And Jesus answered him,
    The first of all the commandments [is,] Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (Mark-12:28-30)

    The scribe said
    Well, Master, thou hast said the truth:
    for there is One God; and there is none other but he: And to love Him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.(Mark-12:32-33)

    That is the God is One and He alone should be worshipped.

    When Jesus heard this he said
    Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. (Mark-12:34)

    Another sample from the Bible by which Jesus claims God as One God

    And a certain ruler asked him (Jesus), saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is,] God. (Luke 18:18,19)

    Here Jesus did even say that he is not good but the God, who is One, only is good.

    The concept of trinity is introduced into the Bible by Paul.
    Paul who has never seen or witnessed Jesus and who does not belong to the time of Jesus claims himself as Jesus’ apostle.
    In his epistles to the Romans, he introduces this concept of trinity, which Jesus has never known.

    He starts his epistles with the concept of trinity, which is introduced by himself falsely in the name of God.

    Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: (Romans 1:1-4)

    So those who worship the One God without associating any partners to Him, follow Jesus.

    And those who worship Jesus by the false concept of trinity follow Paul.

    Jesus did not know about trinity
    And do not say, “God is Three”; it is better for you to desist. Indeed, God is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. (Quran 4:171)

    And [beware of the Day] when God will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides God?’ ”
    He will say, “Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me – to worship God, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.
    (Quran 5:116,117)

    Please worship the One God who has created all that exists and do not be of those of the people of Hellfire.

    • Kurt J. says:

      Thanks for writing Abdullah, and I appreciate that you have been searching the scriptures – you are to be commended. As Willard stated, Jesus did indicate his co-equal status with God. He did not have to teach “God is a Trinity” because it is already throughout old testament scriptures, as I have shown in the article you have replied to. Additionally He plainly stated in John 10:30: I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. The reason the Jews were about to stone Him is because they understood that what He was stating was blasphemy – stating that He was co-equal with God – if it weren’t for the fact that it was true!

      Here are some other situations or quotes directly involving Yeshua (that’s the Hebrew pronunciation for Jesus, it means “Yah (short for Yahweh, God’s name) saves”):

      Yeshua receives worship; only God can receive worship:

      And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. Then Jesus *said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.” (Matt 28:9-10)

      Not only Paul, as you propose, but the Apostle John must have thought Yeshua was God:

      In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God… And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1, 14)

      Not only Paul and John think Yeshua is God, but Matthew also, as he attributes to Christ the ability to forgive sins; only God can forgive sins:

      Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” And he got up and went home. (Matt 9:5-7)

      Luke too:

      But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,”—He said to the paralytic—“I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.”

      Yeshua doesn’t seem shy about associating His name with the Father and the Holy Spirit:

      And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Luke 5:24)

      – – –

      Abdullah, its your prerogative to claim that God is a solitary being, but you will not be able to prove that from the Bible. There is a reason Christians and more and more Jews have found that the God of the Bible is a triune being of eternal love – because it is clearly taught from Genesis to Revelation. You can claim that the Bible is corrupt, but if so, it is the most coherent and logical corrupt book in the entire world. Its corruption puts the purity of the Qur’an to shame.

      Now before you start to take offense, recognize this: You are NOT a Muslim – you are simply a person created and loved by God that has been caught in a system of lies that seeks to steal from you and destroy your life. You can be set free from these lies simply by calling on the name of Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah, as I and countless others, including former Muslims, have done. I promise if you do you will encounter God’s forgiveness and His immense and immeasurable love – Taste and see that the Lord is good.

      Blessings,
      Kurt

  2. Willard says:

    Abdullah – We must never forget that Jesus was both God and also man at the same time. That is why he could qualify to pay the price for sin.

    He was perfect in both forms – as God he is perfect and also as man he lived the perfect life. He was a man who lived in the same sinful world that we live in, he was tempted and yet never sinned as a man and he was also God so his righteous and sinless blood qualified and could pay the price for sin – he lived an unblemished life – he was a perfect sacrifce – for ONCE and FOR ALL – the moment when he died his final words were “”It is Finished”” how could some that was just a man accomplish that – but there he hung on the cross as a man and the blood that drained to the ground was the holy blood of God himself – that is why we are saved – when we accept that truth by faith we also become one with him, through him and in him.

    He said the following about himself speaking of both his natures God and man.

    Jn 10:30 I and the Father are one
    Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one

    Thomas called Jesus God

    Jn 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
    Jn 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed

    Jn 10:38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father

    Jn 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves

    1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
    1Jn 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

    .1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify: ……..THE TRINITY……………
    1Jn 5:8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement

  3. Abdullah says:

    Thanks for your reply brothers.

    When the Bible does not have a single solid verse from Jesus for the Christians claim of trinity, it has so many verses from Jesus to claim that God is one. But very few reason this to accept the truth that God is one.

    Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:28)

    Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is,] God. (Luke 18:19)

    If Jesus (peace be upon him) claimed that “I and the Father are one”, then why the same Jesus (peace be upon him) told that none is good (including him) and God is the only good?

    In fact the very title of this blog is “God is as He reveals Himself” in the scripture and not how we perceive God by our knowledge. How Bible reveals that – One God or three God.

    Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:28)

    May God guide you to the truth.

    • Kurt J. says:

      Abdullah,

      What you have done is to continue to point out from scripture what we as Christians already know and agree with – that there is no other God than Yahweh, the God revealed in the Bible.

      What you have not done is to address the multiple verses we have brought to your attention that show that while God is one God, He is three persons: Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

      Please address these.

      Kurt

  4. Willard says:

    Abdullah – A bit long but the three are present here in Gen 18 – notice that in verse 18:1 that the Lord appeared (singular) but there were three men in verse two – all the way through the chapter the Lord is refered to as singular although there are three men – this is a clear referance of the TRINITY dealing with Abraham

    The Three Visitors

    Ge 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
    Ge 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
    Ge 18:3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by.

    Ge 18:4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree.
    Ge 18:5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.” “Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”
    Ge 18:6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of fine flour and knead it and bake some bread.”
    Ge 18:7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it.
    Ge 18:8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.
    Ge 18:9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There, in the tent, ” he said.

    Ge 18:10 Then the LORD said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.
    Ge 18:11 Abraham and Sarah were already old and well advanced in years, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing.
    Ge 18:12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my master is old, will I now have this pleasure?”

    Ge 18:13 Then the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’
    Ge 18:14 Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son.”
    Ge 18:15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.”

    Abraham Pleads for Sodom 18:16-33 continues as three men but refered to in singular form

  5. Willard says:

    Abdullah – I just recalled that the Trinity was also at creation

    Ge 1:2 ………….. and the (Spirit of God) was hovering over the waters

    Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let (us) PLURAL make man in (our) PLURAL image, in (our) PLURAL likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
    Ge 1:27 So God created man (in his own image) SINGULAR

    We see 1) The Spirit of God 2 we see God as an US or an OUR (dual) which is God the father and God the Son – we know that Jesus was at creation because we are told by John in verse 2 that he was with God in the beginning. Verse 1 make it very clear when it says that the Word became flesh!!!! And we are than told that in the beginning WAS THE WORD and the WORD was with God and than that THE WORD WAS GOD – THIS IS A PLURAL STATEMENT

    The Word Became Flesh
    Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
    Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made

    We are told who the WORD IS

  6. Abdullah says:

    How great is God. Through a single verse he revealed himself as One.

    The word of God revealing about Himself is so explicit and so clear that any kid can understand about Himself.

    But you give so many verses to claim God is three. Yet there are clear evidences for your claim.

    The God you try to derive is confusing.
    But so great is the God of the Bible, the Torah, the Psalms, the Quran, who reveals Himself as One

    Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:28)

    Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is,] God. (Luke 18:19)

  7. Abdullah says:

    How great is God. Through a single verse he revealed himself as One.

    The word of God revealing about Himself is so explicit and so clear that any kid can understand about Himself.

    But you give so many verses to claim God is three. Yet there are no clear evidences for your claim.

    The God you try to derive is confusing.
    But so great is the God of the Bible, the Torah, the Psalms, the Quran, who reveals Himself as One

    Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:28)

    Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is,] God. (Luke 18:19)

    • Kurt J. says:

      God is indeed One, but would be unknowable if He were not revealed by Yeshua, God’s Messiah:

      John 17:25,26, “O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

      Jesus is the exact representation of the Father’s nature:

      Heb 1:1-3,“God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature”

      Jesus upholds ALL things by HIS power:

      Heb 1:3-4, “And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”

      Jesus is called The Son by The Father:

      Heb 1:5 “For to which of the angels did He ever say,

      YOU ARE MY SON,
      TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?

      And again,

      I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
      AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?”

      Praise God that though He is one in nature, He is three in personhood – Father, Son and Holy Spirit:

      Matt 28:18-20: Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

      I will proclaim the truth of the WHOLE counsel of God.

  8. Abdullah says:

    The clear cut answer expected here is Jesus(peace be upon him) told that God is one and only just through a single verse.

    But for the concept of trinity that God, holy spirit and Jesus are one consubstantially, you have to derive it. Even then your effort is futile in an unclear manner.

    See how God is been revealed in a crystal clear manner.

    Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:28)

    Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is,] God. (Luke 18:19)

  9. Kurt J. says:

    Hi Abdullah,

    Jesus was quoting Duet 6:4. The verse says in Hebrew

    Hear, O Israel!

    The LORD (יהוה Yĕhovah, God’s personal name)

    is our God (אלהים ‘elohiym, Plural “gods”)

    the LORD (יהוה Yĕhovah, God’s personal name)

    is one! (אחד ‘echad, a unified one, always used to denote things like a “cluster of grapes”, for example, the cluster is one, but made up of many parts)

    Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one”.

    Have a good day, bless you, Abdullah.

  10. Abdullah says:

    One more is missing Kurt. May be you forgot.
    The Holy spirit?

    Do not try to convince your mind Kurt, with what you have no clear knowledge about.

    Just pray at night and speak to your God to show you the truth. But with an open mind if you are truthful. God will reveal about Himself just the way He revealed Himself to Abraham.

    You are a brother of me and I will pray for you.

    God bless you Kurt.

    • Kurt J. says:

      Abdullah,

      Polytheism: 1+1+1=3
      Trinitarianism: 1x1x1=1

      Jesus said:

      37 And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. 38 You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. (John 5)

      I did not forget the Holy Spirit:

      The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. (2 Corinthians 13:14)

      Bless you,
      Kurt

  11. Willard says:

    Abdullah – Whay does God refer to himself as LET US make man in OUR IMAGE – Plural

    Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground

    Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of ……..us,……… knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever

  12. Willard says:

    Abdullah

    I am still curious and interested in your view as to why Genesis records the creation story as God refering to himself in the plural form – US and OUR image?

  13. Abdullah says:

    Hi guys,

    I apologize for a delay in response due to a busy schedule.

    Regarding the use of word Elohim, Kurt said it is a plural in Hebrew. I’ve gone through some scholarly work on Hebrew which taught me that the word Elohim can be used as a singular as well as a plural during translation. We can understand the intended real meaning of this word by reading the verb and/or pronoun which accompanies the word.

    Hence the usage of YHWH along with Elohim makes Elohim as singular and not the contrary.

    And regarding Willard’s doubt on why God should say “Let us make man in our image”,

    In Ge 1:26, the word Elohim is used for representing God. The word that qualifies Elohim is bə•ṣal•mê•nū. Its meaning is translated not to “our images” (plural) but to “our image” (singular). Hence the word Elohim was translated into God rather than Gods. Further there is no word representing “us” in that verse in Hebrew.

    But even if you find a “us”, that doesn’t prove to be an evidence of trinity.

    Because in Semitic languages it is common to use ”us/our/we” kind of words for “I/my/mine” to indicate a superiority and greater respect a person has in the society. In Quran a large number of such usages can be found. But those words changes the original meaning literally when translated. It is because of this reason mostly the Quran will have the Arabic script along with the translation.

    So if you read Bible in Hebrew, you will understand the real meaning and you will understand the real contradictions. After all Bible was not revealed in English.

    Let me ask you Guys – the God is a good God. He certainly does not want to confuse His creations regarding His nature. He will definitely reveal Himself in a language which even the poorest in knowledge will understand.

    Hence if trinity is the truth, then Jesus should have mentioned it clearly atleast in a single verse that he, the God and the holy spirit are the same entity.

    But Jesus told very clearly that the first commandment is.

    The Lord of Israel is one God. (Mark 12:28)

    Also if they three are the same, he should have told himself and the Holy Spirit are equally good as the One God, who is good.

    Rather he told
    Why you call me good, none is good save one, the God. (Luke 18:19)

    He explicitly compares himself with God and emphasizes the superiority of God over him in this particular verse.

    Does these clear verses are not enough for you to understand that Jesus is not equal to God. God is one and unique. He is superior than Jesus and the holy spirit which are His creations and in no way is equal to Him. Hence the trinity principle itself is fake and manmade. It is a bitter lie by man about his God’s nature.

    May God guide you.

    • Kurt J. says:

      Abdullah: If trinity is the truth, then Jesus should have mentioned it clearly at least in a single verse that he, the God and the holy spirit are the same entity.

      John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

      • Abdullah says:

        I say again and again Kurt, the Holy spirit is missing in that verse.

        Also Jesus says that except God none is good including him in another verse.

        Why you call me good, none is good save one, the God. (Luke 18:19)

        if “I and the Father are one.” – physically or whatever be in your logic
        1+1+1 = 1
        all should be good.
        But Jesus tells to the contrary
        What is the result of
        Good (1) + bad (1) + bad (1) = ? (Good or bad)

        This is Christianity. This is the confusion.

        Even This thread has prolonged this much.But you are not able to arrive at a clear evidence Kurt.

        Just believe and say God is one and Jesus is His messenger, you will get the salvation that God had promised through His messenger Jesus.

        The Lord of Israel is one God. (Mark 12:28)

      • Kurt J. says:

        Abdullah,

        I’ve shown you many verses showing that the Holy Spirit and Yeshua are both God, and a few that mention Father, Son and Holy Spirit together. These are from the same Bible that says “No one is good except God alone.” (Luke 18:19) The Bible clearly teaches both that God is one and that He is three persons. If you are honest, then you will admit this. You may deny the truth of the verses showing what you don’t like, but nonetheless, they are there.

        Kurt

  14. Willard says:

    Abduallah – I do not know if you have any children but if you had a son and considering all things you are both the same flesh and are individuals but humanly speaking are not you and your son physically equals as in the form of humans. You both need to breath air, both feel pain, both make mistakes, and as humans we all are equals – we all fail and fall short – that is why we needed Christ to die for our sins whose perfect life paid the price

    I pointed out the below verses in an earlier post (There are three that testify)

    By studying the first 18 verses of John 1 you have to concluded that Jesus and God are equals / one and the same – Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, —– and the Word was with God, —— and the Word was God

    Like wise it is with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit they are spiritually equals – so how can we be born of God ? By his spirit.

    1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
    1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

    1Jn 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

    1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:

    1Jn 5:8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

    1Jn 5:9 We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son

    • Abdullah says:

      You say 1+1+1 = 1

      But Jesus said
      “…the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

      Hence according to Jesus
      God(1) > Jesus(1)

      Then how come he had preached
      God(1) + Jesus(1) + holyspirit(1) = 1

      Hence one verse of the Bible contradicts the other.

      For your own logics which you have given above let me ask-

      If I had created a Robot. That Robot is of my image. Do you think that I and that Robot are the same. That is my creation and I love my creation. That doesn’t mean that I and the Robot are the same. and 1 + 1 + 1 ≠ 1.

      I was born in this world because of God. That doesn’t necessitate that God has begotten me. That means that God had created me (Arianism which Constantine and not Jesus had pronounced as heresy).

      You weren’t able to produce any proof solidly or atleast to a limited level.

      It is with these confusions only the early writers of the Bible had written something which contradicts, unclear and full of falsehood mixed with a little truth.

      The truth is that
      The Lord of Israel is one God. (Mark 12:28)

  15. Willard says:

    Abdullah

    Thanks for the debate it make me dig deeper into Gods word.

    The Jews stoned Jesus because he claimed himself equal to God – why did Jesus say that I and the Father are one ?? As I indicated before we need to look at Jesus as both God and man – God died on the cross for us as a perfect man – nothing else could pay the price other than a perfect man who also was God – Yes I do understand the concept is a hard one – but non the less also a true one – please see the below words that Jesus himself spoke

    One question that I have always had was how does a Muslin get to heaven – is it by your own good works or deeds or how do you qualify when the day comes that you die – As a Christian I have Christ as my advocate what does a Muslin person have. I am very interested to know as I have many Muslim friends who cannot give me the real answer ??

    I and the Father are one – The below words are words that Jesus himself spoke – This no doubt is a difficult concept for many especially Muslim people who have been taught that the trinity is untrue or even that Jesus and God are one and the same persons – But who can explain God – if we could put him in a test tube he would than cease to be God – His power and his love are so much greater than us that we can only see shadows of his ultimate greatness

    Jn 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
    Jn 10:31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
    Jn 10:32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
    Jn 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God

    Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—( so that they may be one as we are one.)

    Jn 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
    Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:

    Jn 17:23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
    Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me d to be with me where I am, e and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
    Jn 17:25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.
    Jn 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

  16. Willard says:

    Abdullah – A robot can be any image that a man wants to create it so I do not think that a robot is a good anology compared to what God created – (man) Man has a free will a robot has nothing – no will – no emotions – a robot is controled by the will of it creator an entirley different thing all together – the programer controls it as per his will – God does not control mans will man is on his own to love God or not it is a choice that man says yes to or no too.

    Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
    Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

    God created man (us) in his image – he says OUR image – at the end of creation we were perfect human beings – meaning not only were we created in Gods image we were also created without sin.

    But because he created man with a free will which robots do not have. Man having a free will obeyed God by his own choice, man was not forced to obey or love God – the love and obediance was to shine through man because he loved God willingly not because he was under obligation – Just like our offspring we can not force them to love us – we get our joy and pleasure from them because they love and trust us willingly

    But as we know man sinned, he disobeyed Gods commands because of the free will that God created with the man (us). This is where all of mans probems began when he disobeyed. The problem now was how could he reconcile man back into his grace once again. There was only one way and that was through a perfect sacrifice for sin. That perfect sacrfice was found through his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus also has a free will and he choose by his own free will to go to the cross for us for all of mankind. Because we were and are sinners we could not pay the price for sin. The price for sin was perfection, a perfect sacrifice and that perfection can only be fould in Holy Blood – the blood shed on the cross for all of mankind.

    Paul explained it this way.

    Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
    Ro 5:13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
    Ro 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
    Ro 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
    Ro 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
    Ro 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death l reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life m through the one man, Jesus Christ.
    Ro 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
    Ro 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man q the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
    Ro 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
    Ro 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

  17. Abdullah says:

    Dear Willard,

    Since the thread is prolonging and still you do not come with a clear verse indicating God, Jesus and holy spirit are the 3 in one God.

    You say Paul said… John said…, etc. But the Bible clearly states as Jesus said
    The Lord of Israel is one God. (Mark 12:28)

    Still you quote the verse
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    But even in that the holy spirit is missing – so it is 2 in 1 and not 3 in 1 God.
    And for 3 in 1 concept you guys say paul said, etc. The question here is God is as he reveals Himself and not as paul reveals about God.

    “I and the father are one” can be taken as I am preaching what the God has commanded me to and if you obey me, it is equivalent to obeying God.

    In altogether when we look at what Kurt said

    Polytheism: 1+1+1=3
    Trinitarianism: 1x1x1=1

    God x Jesus x holy spirit
    (>1) x 1 x 1 ≠ 1
    as Jesus said “…the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

    (>1) x 1 x 1 > 1, hence it is also polytheism.

    Here we do not discus for winning or losing.

    Verily the one who has got the truth wins and the one who persists in falsehood loses. That is why I’ve stopped prolonging the thread and had prayed to God to guide you.

    But in the above link you have shown I have to clarify one thing Willard.

    A thousand unverified stories can be propagated by the western media against Muslims and Islam, but it is the fact that the holy Quran was and is being burnt down by so many Christians and you cannot see the Muslims retaliating in that cheaper level.
    When the Christian west demonizes the Prophet Muhammad by drawing blasphemous cartoons against him, the Muslims did not and will not retaliate because of our respect towards Jesus, the son of Mary, God’s messenger. This is what Prophet Muhammad taught us.
    And it is a known fact that the Christian West had killed more than 2 million innocent Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan within a decade. And you say that you follow Jesus – “love thy neighbor”.

    But still you cry foul against Islam.

    And for your quote of Muslims hiding their christian beliefs out of fear please search and find who is “Ivonne Riddley” and what had lead her to Islam. She embraced Islam after being released from the Taliban. She says she started learning about Islam after her release just because of the courteous behavior of Taliban, who captivated her and whom we call as terrorists. Now she is a preacher of Islam in Europe.

    Leaving besides all those as we can find good men and evil men among every religion, let us come to a common term of discussion. About God. Who is our real God?

    And in this topic only we were discussing all these days.

    Please learn Islam, you will end up in following Jesus.

    May God bless you.

  18. Willard says:

    Abdullah – I have shown you numerous places and you have rejected them so there is not much else that I can do. One clear place is below but I am sure that you will reject this as well.

    Abraham was visited by three persons yet he calls them by a singular name – my Lord – a reading of all of 18 clarifies three persons one God or one Lord.

    Christians are not burning the Quran other than one or two instances – Saudia Arabia and most of the ME a Christian is not allowed to bring a bible into the country – in Nigeria they are burning hundreds of churches and killing thousands of christians.

    More than ten million Christians have been forced to leave their homes in the ME over the last ten years.

    Ge 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
    Ge 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
    Ge 18:3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by

    Jesus is speaking of three

    Jn 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—
    Jn 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you

    Again three spirits are spoken about

    Jn 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
    Jn 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
    Jn 16:9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
    Jn 16:10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
    Jn 16:11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world b now stands condemned.
    Jn 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
    Jn 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
    Jn 16:14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
    Jn 16:15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you

    Regards the killing of Muslim people your statment is not fair or accurate who has killed more than the infighting amongst Sunnis ans Shias – Syria today, Libya, Yeman, Saddam and Iran, Saddam and Kuwait,

    I do not agree with every thing that happens in the world with wars and killings but to blame it all on the christian world to be the sole source of the killing that is not accurate.

    Jesus died on the cross for me that I may be saved by his blood and receive eternal life and I am more than prepared to die for him and for my faith.

  19. Abdullah says:

    There is no point in arguing in the same way as you do brother.

    And once again a remainder from your holy book.

    Jesus said “The Lord of Israel is one God.” (Mark 12:28)

    Jesus said “…the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

    Thanks for your responses.

    May God guide you.

  20. Willard says:

    Thanks also Abdullah for responding to me. There is one issue that both you and I will have to one day face and that is Almighty God and his judgement.

    When I die Christ and what he done on the cross will be there as my advocate as the price paid for all of my sins. By me accepting his shed blood by faith I am gurranteed access into heaven. His shed blood has given me salvation and everlasting life. His blood says that the price of all my sins and yours if you acept him are – PAID IN FULL – It is the cross and what God himself done on it that will carry me and you into everlasting life if you accept his work on the cross.

    I will pray for you that the Holy Spirit will come upon you and that you will come to understand and accept this FREE GIFT of everlasting life.

    I challenge you that we pray for each other and see whose God answer our prayers as who will be guided into all truth

    May God bless you and open your heart to his truth

    • Kurt J. says:

      Amen, Willard. I was going to invite Abdullah too to consider the very simple words of John 3:16:

      For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

      There is only one way into eternal life, and it is not through our effort, but God’s gift: His Son. No amount of Jihad, obedience, prayer, fasting, or any other discipline on our part will get us there because the standard of God is perfection. We are hopelessly lost without Yeshua, who died the death that we should have; in Him is our peace with God. Amen.

  21. Abdullah says:

    @”I challenge you that we pray for each other and see whose God answer our prayers as who will be guided into all truth”

    Thanks brothers for your words. It is upto God to guide anyone unto truth and leave anyone in their falsehood. We cannot intervene into His affairs brothers. Let us pray to God to show the truth. He will surely reveal about Himself to each one of us InshaAllah.

    Please check the below link.

    Brothers all through this thread if I had hurt you with my words, please forgive me.

    I will pray to God to guide you to His truth.

    Ameen

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